friend money etiquette?

[juldea]

Some of you locals may have seen how obsessively I keep track of my finances, using GnuCash to keep track of my bank accounts, credit cards, and what I refer to as my "cash account" - keeping track of the cash I carry around and what I spend it on, down to the penny. I also try as much as possible to keep track of what I owe people and, conversely, what people owe me. People I engaged in serious money-swapping with (londo, usernamenumber) get their own spreadsheets, whereas for everyone else I have a more loosey-goosey "owed by whomever" sheet. Well, it's been a while since I untangled that sheet, figuring out who gets what, and I just did.

So now I'm faced with the dilemma of being pretty sure that friends owe me money, and can tell them how much and when, but isn't it kind of bitchy to suddenly spring on your friend a reminder of a months-old debt? I'm not quite sure how to approach that. Also, there's the manner of I'm not sure if some of these are still debts; it's quite possible the person paid me back in a way I just didn't enter into my system. It's rare that I let something slide, but it does happen. So I don't want to say, "Hey, you owe me $10 for that movie ticket," and have my friend say, "Uh... no I don't. We settled that months ago."

Examples: I bought a movie ticket for a friend in March. I bought party supplies for a friend in April. I bought dinner for a friend in early June. I don't have record of any of these things being paid back. (And there's a bought smoothie a few weeks ago and a shared Zipcar on July 4th, but those are not forgotten debts. They were discussed last week!) On the flipside, I show here that I owe someone (witticaster or doompuppy?) $5 for food at Cosmic Steak and Pizza after the last Rage Across the Cape game on June 20 - I think it's witticaster, but that should be confirmed.

These things are small, on the order of $10. I totally can afford covering them. Should I just do so? Do you think you'd be offended if you got an email from me saying, "Hey, I think I paid for this thing for you a few months ago and you never paid me back?" Do you think it's absolutely 100% rude? Is it excusable in the context of my keeping rigid track of finances and thus keeping myself up to date on debts to others, i.e. not creating a double standard? What price limit is the point at which you bring these things up to people? What if one person is responsible for multiple debts?

Etiquette is hard. :/ Let's go shopping. (You pay. ;)

Comments

[siderea]

Hey, is the March movie ticket me? If so, I'm good for it. :)

Feel free to hit me up for anything I might owe you.

What price limit is the point at which you bring these things up to people?

Personally, after a few months, if it's not $20 or over, I write it off. But this is probably because I have a weak memory and can't be bothered and can easily afford it.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

It is indeed. :) I honestly can't remember if that got settled elsewise or not, but if you're cool to toss me $8.25, that's what I have on record. Barter is also accepted! (Ghoti?)

[siderea]

Ghoti! I think I'm free T, Th, F, Sa this week. When works for you?

[juldea.livejournal.com]

Either F or Sa work for me this week; F would be no earlier than 9, Sa I'm completely free.

[siderea]

Either would be just dandy for me, with a slight preference for late Friday. Pick a time that works for you.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

If you prefer late Friday, that works great for me. Hana, I presume?

[siderea]

Yep! 9pm, or did you want later?

[siderea]

Poke. 9pm? (I have my cell with me, let me know what the plan is.)

[juldea.livejournal.com]

Sorry for not getting back quicker - basically, my arrival time is somewhere 30-45 minutes after I leave work, which is approx. 8:30. I can text you with more specifics later if you want, or can just plan to meet you there around 9-9:15?

[siderea]

9-9:15 is fine. See you there!

[zenandtheart.livejournal.com]

This is an interesting subject. I routinely forget that people owe me large amounts of money, but I understand that we all go through periods in our lives where every dollar counts, and I'd never be offended if someone reminded me of a debt. Unless it was a friend who had lent money from me in the past and had never repaid. If I'd forgotten a large sum I'd be embarrassed to have to be reminded. As to a sum worth reminding people about... maybe $20?

[juldea.livejournal.com]

If I'd forgotten a large sum I'd be embarrassed to have to be reminded.

That's why I'm having so much difficulty here... if someone owed me a large sum, I would have no problem reminding them of it (and I have no problem when those to whom I owe money remind me of it.) But the amounts in question here aren't enough to fit that category. However, they are more than I'd like to write down as a budgeting discrepancy, and if I have the information, why not use it, right?

[doc-smiley.livejournal.com]

I'm fairly sure I don't owe you anything but if I do feel free to email me.

[nightskyre.livejournal.com]

I'm very similar to you. Here's how I handle it.

If a period of time have gone by and you just untangled your sheet, just tell them that. Don't approach it as "You owe me x because my spreadsheet says so" but rather "Hey, I just got my records in order and I have this outstanding amount I loaned you (I loaned you is a lot nicer than 'You owe me'). Do you remember if it was paid?"

Since you're already waffling over asking for the money, if they are pretty sure they did, then drop it. If neither of you has a clue, you can assert your "I'm pretty sure" and if that doesn't sit well with either of you, split it down the middle.

[nightskyre.livejournal.com]

*HAS gone by. HAS gone by! Stupid grammar and changing sentences on the fly.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

I very much like your suggestions on wording. You're right, "I loaned you," is better than, "You owe me," and I also liked opening that with, "Do you remember if it was paid?" It's a much less directly aggressive approach. Thank you. :)

[nightskyre.livejournal.com]

Thanks :o)

Who knew *I* would figure out some diplomacy, eh?

[shogunhb.livejournal.com]

Pretty much what I would say.

Different people have different loan thresholds, some people keep track of small amounts and precise vales, others are more willing to ignore small amounts or simply approximate values.

I would never be offended if someone reminded me of a debt unless the situation were significantly imbalanced, such as someone I often covered for a few dollars hitting me up for the dollar I borrowed that once.

I keep track of things in my phone, and I'm much more likely to put money in that I borrow than things I loan, unless it's more than a certain amount. Many of my notes have things like "owe X for dinner approx $10)" or "owe Y half-pizza"

Current outstanding loans are even more vague with the exception of a few large dollar amounts.

I try to make it clear at the time of borrowing or loaning just how exact the debt is going to be.

petty cash?

[cthulhia]

unless every cent is needed for you to make your rent, in which case, don't make the loans.

Tread carefully, some of us have had horrid experiences with penny pinchers.

Unless you feel like someone specific is taking advantage of your generosity, i.e., if someone on the spreadsheet has run up a tab without ever reciprocating, in which case, you need to let them know, chasing people for their "Two Dollars" could be more socially expensive than just letting it slide.

It's also ok to lightly encourage them to reciprocate costs, i.e, if you treated them to a movie, suggest they treat you to one in return, since then you're not just asking for a refund, but encouraging another social gathering.

Re: petty cash?

[zigdon.livejournal.com]

That's my approach too. I'm in a different financial situation, but for me, when I lend money or buy a friend dinner, I don't keep track of it. I basically assume that if we see each other enough, things turn out even.

If there's a particular friend with which this doesn't work, after a while, I get it, and stop.

This has only happened to me once. Everyone else either keeps track of their debt (or mine!) and let me know of it, or thinks of things in the same terms I do.

That said, if somehow I end up owing you money, I certainly don't see you enough to have it even out, let me know! :)

Re: petty cash?

[cthulhia]

Yeah, when it's under $10, I usually let it slide as a gift, until it seems to be getting chronic.

I guess with something over $10, it needs to be determined up front whether it's a gift or a loan. And, if *only* to be repaid in cash, dealt with promptly. (as opposed to "next time, you pay, ok?")

After 3 months... or the usual amount of times it takes refund cheques to expire, it starts getting into a grey area (like... do you start that clock strictly from the time of the loan, or from your next in-person chance to even casually say "o, hey, can you pay me back for that loan?" which is something that can't *softly* be done in writing/email much more than a week or so after the loan.)

(Also since you're posting this entry, if I owe you a coffee or a movie, let me know).

Re: petty cash?

[juldea.livejournal.com]

Oh, and you don't owe me these things, but neither would I turn them down. :)

Re: petty cash?

[juldea.livejournal.com]

Oh, you totally, um, owe me... uh... $5. In cash. That you said you'd deliver in person. I SWEAR.

Re: petty cash?

[juldea.livejournal.com]

Heh, "petty" cash. I get it. :)

I might've not been entirely clear in the above post; I rather frequently cover costs for other people for social events, food, etc. But every now and then the response is, "I'll pay you back," and due to the way I keep my finances, I do make note of that. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't; sometimes they do in cash, sometimes in reciprocity; all of this is flexible. But if someone has indicated they're going to pay me back in cash, and it hasn't happened, but I haven't been reminding them either, this is the point at which I make posts like the above. Which it's looking like I'm going to happily "gift" one of the four cases, one of the others is paying me back with sushi this week, and the others are yet to be figured out. So I don't think I've hit penny-pinching territory yet.

[teenyweenyowen.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that I don't owe you anything but if I do feel free to let me know. I tend to keep good track of who I owe but I'm human. Also, unfortunately, I don't see you often enough to be able to repay rapidly.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

I believe us to be even-steven. :)

[witticaster.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, the snafu with the receipt machine thing that was out of paper. I forget exactly how that worked out, but I think she charged me twice, but that covered part of yours, but we said we'd figure it out amongst ourselves because she was having a hard enough time figuring out what she was doing.... That was special.

So I can't speak for normal people, but my memory has atrophied for unknown reasons in the past three years, so it's now a coin toss as to whether I'll remember anything. I'm perfectly okay with being reminded that I owe someone money or that they owe me money of just about any amount.

[slammerkinbabe.livejournal.com]

I think I might owe you some money -- a relatively small amount probably, but nevertheless, if I do owe it, let me know, hey?

[juldea.livejournal.com]

I don't actually think you owe me any money, at least none that I've written down, but if you want to present me with a diet Dr Pepper sometime I probably won't turn it down. :)

[kishpa.livejournal.com]

I've always just let it slide or done the "you can get me next time" provided its a small amount. But that's how I feel about it. If someone else pays for me though, I'm very adamant about paying that back. I've never been ofended at someone asking me for funds that they provided for me though. Each person manages their money differently and thats a personal choice that should be respected by and for each individual.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, even if I keep track of things really strictly in my ledgers, I'll be happy to trade "dinner for dinner" and consider that even, and just work out the numbers on my spreadsheet myself.

[captainecchi.livejournal.com]

Definitely poke me if Matt or I owe you anything.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

I do not believe you do.

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

I am cool with being reminded; the moreso as I am unlikely to remember a small bit on my own.

Just for comparison's sake (as I don't think this would work for you), here's my policy: I don't 'loan' money any more. If someone is cash-short when we're ordering food or something, and I want to cover it, I cover it. If they end up giving me a similar gift sometime in the future, bonus, but I don't consider it a debt to be repaid.

For larger amounts of money, I have a slight modification to that policy, based on unfortunate experience. I *hate* it when people say "I'll pay you back on , really!" Because when (often) they fail to do so, I feel let down, and I don't want to be responsible for hounding them about it. This turns out to sometimes be worth hundreds of dollars to me -- that is, I would rather write off a loan of that magnitude as a gift than be told it will be dealt with in the future. If you plan to pay me back some time in the future, feel free to do so; just *please* don't tell me about it until you're handing me the cash.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

I only had you down insofar as you lent me $20 to cover Chinese food once (as you said, cash-short when ordering food!), but I returned that to you at the Buttery. :) I don't remember if you told me about your policy then, but I'm sure my response would've been, "I'll probably be able to pay you back the next time I see you, but if not, the time after that or sometime!"

[ddrpolaris.livejournal.com]

Can't remember if I owe you anything, but if so, just shoot me an e-mail with the details, I'm good for it. I always struggle with this, but usually just settle down to a fuzzymath sortof thing.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

I only think you owe me in that you apparently thought that after the 4th of July party you owed me dinner at Baba... ;)

[doompuppy.livejournal.com]

Yeah from dinner at Rage you totally don't owe me... if anything I was low cash guy and barely covered meal + tax.

On the whole I'm pretty relaxed about small amounts (i.e. a meal or portions thereof) provided it doesn't become a frequent thing.

Also I'm comfortable with being asked "Do I owe you?" and also with being told "Hey, you owe me."

Really, I'm about as far from OCD on this front as possible. Basically I see it as a sorta karmic thing of "try to tip real well/offer to cover when you can, and let others pick up the slack when you can't" sort of a need based system.

I do try and get people back for things they've got me in cases they are willing to accept the re-gift, and I try not to push if they resist it.

Still if it's a matter of <10 bucks I really try not to stress over it, otherwise my head would explode.

So please tell me if you ever angst over money discrepancies.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

I think I was thinking about you from that dinner because we split those weird clam things, can't remember what they were called now, but I think we did figure out that money. So no angst with you!

[nemoalia.livejournal.com]

Most money things come out in the wash. Being generous with friends is something I do out of love, or for convenience (so that we don't all have to stand in line and pay for ourselves individually, thus taking an extra ten minutes when we'd all rather be on our merry way.) In only one case (in case you remember my neighbors, Holly and William) have I ever felt completely used. Otherwise, generosity goes both ways, and I don't worry about it.

I'm pretty broke a lot of the time, so I've had to ask to borrow money to pay an unexpected bill or two. These are the debts I keep track of, and always pay back as soon as I can.