Ok, government sponsored, tends to lead to government control. As Bush said, it'a a line item on the national budget. The question in my mind, is not what Kerry's vision or even if this does follow his vision initially. Where will it be in 20-30 years? Social Security was not originally intended to be a government subsidized retirement fund. I wanna see YOU go down to Florida and try to explain that to all the old folks. We'll stand by with paramedics ;)
The Florida reelection mess, was ugly. Both sides were guilty of pretty much the same things. Just about anything the Democrats accuse the Republicans of, they were guilty of themselves. (This will prob start another post, but what the hell.)
Job loss. Yeah, after the Dot.com bust, 9/11, and the Enron and other corperate scandals, I would have been amazed if there hadn't been any job losses. National level economics is above my head, but I think Bush chose a healthy long term recovery, over a short term fix. Incidentally, I was reading an editoral right before the election, that stated that Clinton was reelected under a higher unemployment rate. Civil liberties. That's an issue that kinda sways with the political winds, and varies depending on which decade we are in. After 9/11, only a fool would not have expected to lose some privacy and or other freedoms. Bush administration may have gone to far, I'm not wise, or familiar enough with the Patriot Act to truely make that call. Iraq. Yes, in hindsight, this was probably a mistake. However, it was a mistake made by both sides. (Kerry voted for it and pubicly supported it) Judge a decision, based on the information available at the time. Don't use hindsight to claim someone is a bad leader. You can say they made a mistake, but it's not a reflection on that person's leadership abilities. Refusal to admit a mistake, is a reflection on a person. And yes, I realize Bush has failed miserably here. Lastly, just so you kind of understand where I actually stand. I do not think Bush is a good president. If the democrats had provided a good candidate, I would have probably voted against Bush. Kerry did not give me enough evidence that he would be a better president. I saw this election as a choice between the lesser of two evils, and I favored Bush.
Okay, you repeated my question without answering it and now want to know what the vision was. Simple: Kerry's plan would have made more Americans who are on the margins today eligible for Medicare and would have offered more Americans who are not insured today a chance to join a relatively low-cost plan. But, if you're starting from the basis of "Government Plan A turned into something I don't like, therefore every Government Plan (as long as Democrats propose it) will turn into something I don't like" then there really isn't anything more I can say to explain it.
But, frankly, I think Georgie's HSA plan is going to be a nightmare: I already play deductable roulette with my HCRA. I've lost money 6 years out of 9 that would have gone better into my pocket and the only reason I got on the treadmill is that the deductables rose in my dental plan rose so high that it made it stupid not to at least try to put some money away. Fortunately, I'm a relatively well paid white-collar worker and a so losing a few hundred every year doesn't bother me that much. But I'd hate to think of what a family of six is going to have to do to figure out how much to salt away in their HSA instead of buying milk. Right now, my co-payments are $20 a pop. If they rose to $100 or $200 a pop, or even more, I'd think three or four times about routine dental cleanings and whether or not my toe really is broken.
---
My point in raising the several issues was to answer your assertion that Republicans and their supporters hated Bill Clinton in the same way that Democrats and their supporters have learned to hate Georgie. People hated Bill Clinton for who he was; people hate Georgie for what he did. Georgie had every opportunity to find compromise, bipartisanship and admit mistakes. He didn't.
Kerry would not have been my choice normally, either. But it is our solemn duty as citizens to judge the man in the chair not by his vision for the next four years, but by what he's done, what he's promised to do, what he failed to do and what, if anything, he's held people accountable for, not to just sit back and say, in the words of an elderly woman I heard on a talk show, "Well I don't know about all that, all I know is that George Bush is the nicer man and that's why I support him."
OK, we can both argue this into the ground for the next 4 years. Why don't we steal a line from another thread here, and agree to disagree. Maybe someday we'll run into each other in RL, and can argue politics until 4am or something. Until such a time, why don't we give Juldea her LJ back? ;) (And yes, I'm specifically refraining from answering any of your points, since that would just drag this out even more.)
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ninetydegrees
no subject
on 5 Nov 2004 16:04 (UTC)The Florida reelection mess, was ugly. Both sides were guilty of pretty much the same things. Just about anything the Democrats accuse the Republicans of, they were guilty of themselves. (This will prob start another post, but what the hell.)
Job loss. Yeah, after the Dot.com bust, 9/11, and the Enron and other corperate scandals, I would have been amazed if there hadn't been any job losses. National level economics is above my head, but I think Bush chose a healthy long term recovery, over a short term fix. Incidentally, I was reading an editoral right before the election, that stated that Clinton was reelected under a higher unemployment rate.
Civil liberties. That's an issue that kinda sways with the political winds, and varies depending on which decade we are in. After 9/11, only a fool would not have expected to lose some privacy and or other freedoms. Bush administration may have gone to far, I'm not wise, or familiar enough with the Patriot Act to truely make that call.
Iraq. Yes, in hindsight, this was probably a mistake. However, it was a mistake made by both sides. (Kerry voted for it and pubicly supported it) Judge a decision, based on the information available at the time. Don't use hindsight to claim someone is a bad leader. You can say they made a mistake, but it's not a reflection on that person's leadership abilities. Refusal to admit a mistake, is a reflection on a person. And yes, I realize Bush has failed miserably here.
Lastly, just so you kind of understand where I actually stand. I do not think Bush is a good president. If the democrats had provided a good candidate, I would have probably voted against Bush. Kerry did not give me enough evidence that he would be a better president. I saw this election as a choice between the lesser of two evils, and I favored Bush.
no subject
on 6 Nov 2004 16:35 (UTC)But, frankly, I think Georgie's HSA plan is going to be a nightmare: I already play deductable roulette with my HCRA. I've lost money 6 years out of 9 that would have gone better into my pocket and the only reason I got on the treadmill is that the deductables rose in my dental plan rose so high that it made it stupid not to at least try to put some money away. Fortunately, I'm a relatively well paid white-collar worker and a so losing a few hundred every year doesn't bother me that much. But I'd hate to think of what a family of six is going to have to do to figure out how much to salt away in their HSA instead of buying milk. Right now, my co-payments are $20 a pop. If they rose to $100 or $200 a pop, or even more, I'd think three or four times about routine dental cleanings and whether or not my toe really is broken.
---
My point in raising the several issues was to answer your assertion that Republicans and their supporters hated Bill Clinton in the same way that Democrats and their supporters have learned to hate Georgie. People hated Bill Clinton for who he was; people hate Georgie for what he did. Georgie had every opportunity to find compromise, bipartisanship and admit mistakes. He didn't.
Kerry would not have been my choice normally, either. But it is our solemn duty as citizens to judge the man in the chair not by his vision for the next four years, but by what he's done, what he's promised to do, what he failed to do and what, if anything, he's held people accountable for, not to just sit back and say, in the words of an elderly woman I heard on a talk show, "Well I don't know about all that, all I know is that George Bush is the nicer man and that's why I support him."
no subject
on 7 Nov 2004 07:58 (UTC)no subject
on 8 Nov 2004 09:42 (UTC)