LJ confessional

[juldea]

Somewhat tangentially to what I think of as my social circle are the people who actively participate in the "LJ Confessional," which is just a post made about once a year, open to anonymous comments, for people to let loose whatever's on their mind. swashbucklr is I think the closest of my friends to that group, and his post announcing the opening of Confessional 2011 is what led me to it. It's here: http://aroraborealis.livejournal.com/958520.html

I had the slimmest of expectations to be mentioned unprompted -- just enough to look -- and then prompted comment with a thread of my own. So far, the responses have been highly varied - people saying I'm hot, new people saying I seem interesting and they want to get to know me, and people who do know me giving me feedback on personality flaws. It's awesome because the latter is still being polite and not bashing. I hope I'm responding in the proper way to continue that trend.

Thanks to those who have commented, or who will comment after reading this. I like feedback.

Comments

[londo.livejournal.com]

I'd just want to make a comment threatening to have hot boysex with zombie_dog again.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

I hate you in that loving way.

[londo.livejournal.com]

<3

[laura47.livejournal.com]

live in my house, I'll be your shelter, just pay me back with one thousand kisses...

[londo.livejournal.com]

1) Huh?
2) Post more polls.

[laura47.livejournal.com]

have you not heard about the Rent dream cast of awkward?

[londo.livejournal.com]

Have you ever known me to pay attention to anything involving Rent?

Also you may be confusing me for someone who lives in Boston, which is understandable but questionably accurate.

[laura47.livejournal.com]

(2) Why?

[londo.livejournal.com]

http://laura47.livejournal.com/1146838.html?thread=3067862#t3067862

[siderea]

Huh. The thing that came up in the negative feedback? You've never done it (in my recollection) in conversation with me... but you in fact do it in your reply. The feedback was that you make the "assumption that the other person just doesn't get it", and in reply you... make the assumption that the other person just doesn't get it, and explain that "in fact" something else is going on. But what you then go on to explain is this different reality ("my worry that I am explaining myself poorly") is exactly what the other person said was the problem in the first place, not something different at all.

FWIW, it's a wicked common problem among NTP types. I think maybe it's a product of growing up around really judgmental adult S types who insisted on being condemnatory based on their completely wrong assumptions about the poor NTP kid ("you're just doing that to piss me off", "you're doing that because you're disrespectful", "you didn't do what you should because you don't care about me/other people", "you're doing that to show off" all leap to mind), and who absolutely would not listen to reason from a kid. :(

In such an environment, it would be reasonable to learn that if someone's making a negative judgment about something one does or is, it's most usually because they don't understand.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

Argh. Trying to avoid doing this thing in my reply to you is pretty much leaving me unable to respond at all. Is it just so inherent in my conversation/debate style that I don't know how to talk otherwise? Am I misunderstanding the problem on a higher level? It feels like I can't even come back at this point with a clarification without that being "you don't get it." Isn't that what a clarification actually is? I don't think it's possible for me to engage a debate without the ability to clarify my statements.

[siderea]

This reply is heroic and awesome, just so's you know. :) You're exactly right that it's like you don't know how to talk otherwise. It's a habit, and habits are hard to break. It feels like AUGH WHAT ELSE COULD I POSSIBLY DO?! Also, with a heaping side of, AUGH THIS IS LIKE SAYING ALL THOSE AWFUL PEOPLE IN THE PAST WERE RIGHT.

You've already figured out several somethings else you can do: ask questions, relate your reaction, and think through consequences.

And yes, that's what a clarification is. And "debate" is an interesting choice of word. When someone says, "this thing you're doing, I don't like it", one has the choice of debating it, but it's not the only choice. Debating it means arguing that they're wrong; one can also say, "Huh, maybe you're right, let me think about that" or, "I'm skeptical, but maybe you can convince me" or probably other things, too.

That said, in a debate with someone, myself I generally find clarifying my position to be a very weak position to be in. Best defense really is a good offense; if I'm determined to win an argument, I'm not going to be clarifying my position, I'm going to be clarifying my opponent's position.

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

"When someone says, "this thing you're doing, I don't like it", one has the choice of debating it, but it's not the only choice."

Some other choices, appropriate in some circumstances:

* I acknowledge that I do, in fact, do this thing.
* I value your opinion enough to attempt to change this behavior.
* I value doing this thing too much to change it just because you don't like it.

Note the clear distinction between the issue of whether the other person is factually correct, and the issue of whether you share their value judgments about the matter under discussion.

I generally have found it useful to debate matters of fact until agreement is reached. Contrariwise, I have found it it useful to *discuss* matters of values until *understanding* is reached; after that point, if you don't agree, going further rarely accomplishes anything.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

"I value your opinion enough to want to understand it more, and thus I will share with you what I think is going on, with the expectation that you will return how you see that thing differently, until I reach a level of understanding such that I can determine whether I value your opinion or this facet of myself more and thus change or not."

:P

I... am frustrated, because I am perceiving your final paragraph to be intended as a lesson or lecture, while I perceive that what you say there is what I do. So here we are again, someone is saying "this thing you're doing is bad," but I don't acknowledge that I do it, and I can't attempt to change it because I don't understand it, and I don't know if I value it because I don't know what it is!

I might have fewer spoons today than yesterday. Sorry. :/

My bad.

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

My post was largely expanding on Siderea's point which I quoted, in a slightly different direction. I thought what she said was true as far as it went, but could benefit from considering more details. I was thinking of this in the abstract, and not in relation to the upthread discussion of behaviors you may or may not engage in. In hindsight, I see how what I wrote did not properly express that, and I apologize for the lack of clarity.

[juldea.livejournal.com]

Well, of course all the people in the past were right. I've known my diplomacy style has SOME kind of problem, I just haven't ever figured out what it is! It's even hard to see now, of course. :)

Early in my comment to you, I used both "debate" and "conversation". By the end of the comment, I was using just "debate" because I was thinking more of political "discussions" of late and less of usual conversation.

I doubt my ability to have a good offense in arguments. I think the reason I'm so stubborn is that otherwise, I would be changing my mind in each debate to match the opinion of whoever was most vociferously arguing against me. Learning to dig in my heels when I've thought something through keeps me from losing all my convictions to the latest smooth-sounding statement. :/

[siderea]

Also: very, very, very important: You always have the right to withdraw, to say, "Huh, I'm going to need to think about that. Thanks." Or to withdraw without saying anything. Nobody has the right to call you on the carpet and demand of you, "IMMEDIATELY ACKNOWLEDGE THE RIGHTNESS OF MY ARGUMENT AND CAPITULATE TO MY DEMANDS TO CHANGE", except unless one is in the military and it's one's commanding officer.

[etherial.livejournal.com]

There is no reg I'm ware of that says you have to agree with your CO, just to obey them.

[purple-dj.livejournal.com]

What if he orders you to agree with him?

[etherial.livejournal.com]

The mind is a mysterious box. Who knows what thoughts actually lurk within?

[juldea.livejournal.com]

But that's LOSING! ;)

Tangentially reminded of a quote

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

"Well now, that's *exactly* the whole *POINT* isn't it?!? Every time we discuss anything *logically* I *lose*. So I ask him how is *that* fair, Mr. Smartypants? Logic your way out of that one." -- Nurse Jones

[aroraborealis.livejournal.com]

Nice work on inviting comments and responding to the ones you've gotten so far. Thanks for helping to keep the bar high!

[juldea.livejournal.com]

Aw, thank you! And thank you for doing the Confessional. I find it fascinating!

[swashbucklr]

To be honest, I'm kind of tangential to what I assume to be "that crowd" myself. There are a few people who regularly post to the Confessional that I recognize, but others I don't.

But I do enjoy the Confessional. It's been fun this year.

[darkoni]

Interesting thing. The sheer amount of comments on that thing means I'll never actually look through it, aside from the thread you pointed out. I don't have that kind of time.

But it is interesting and I admit I'd be curious what people might say to me in an anonymous setting.

[darkoni]

Okay, this thing now just sucked away the last hour my life, as I got caught reading things. I now have to curse you for pointing me at it. *shakes fist dramatically*

I'm going to post something to it, like you did, which will allow me to stop reading. I curse my compulsive nature sometimes.

Back to writing.